Interview: Louisiana Schools Chief John White On ESSA, School Closures And Local Control In NOLA

Interview: Louisiana Schools Chief John White on ESSA, School Closures and Local Control in NOLA

Take a look at the previous 74 interviews, which include discussions with notable individuals such as former Governor Jeb Bush, tennis star Andre Agassi, and current U.S. Senator and education committee chairman Lamar Alexander. You can find the full archive here.

In an extensive interview conducted before the election, John White, the superintendent of education in Louisiana, discussed his ambitious agenda for the state’s schools, which has often been the subject of controversy. White talked about his support for closing ineffective schools, his plans for implementing the new federal ESSA law, and his thoughts on research that suggests vouchers in Louisiana have had a negative impact on student achievement.

Originally appointed with the backing of former Republican Governor Bobby Jindal, White briefly touched on his relationship with current Democratic Governor John Bel Edwards, who criticized White during his campaign and threatened to remove him from his position if elected. However, White continues to enjoy the support of Louisiana’s Board of Education.

The interview has been edited slightly for clarity and to reduce its length.

: Let’s start by discussing the recent Tulane study on school closures. Why do you believe there were positive outcomes in New Orleans but negative outcomes in Baton Rouge?

John White: To understand these two efforts, we have to look back almost 10 years. In New Orleans, there was a state-led intervention that was coupled with a deliberate chartering effort and the intentional development of skilled educators within the city. In Baton Rouge, the interventions were more fragmented, with involvement from both the district and the state. However, neither of these interventions were part of a comprehensive plan like the one implemented in New Orleans.

We have learned from these mistakes, and in recent years, both the state and the district have made a more deliberate effort to implement charters in Baton Rouge. However, these efforts were not covered in the study. The key differentiating factor highlighted in this research and others is whether or not there is a comprehensive plan for developing quality schools. If such a plan is in place, positive results are more likely. Without it, success is less likely.

I read your recent article in The Daily Beast where you called for the closure of "failing schools." One concern that has been consistently raised is that shutting down neighborhood schools not only eliminates a community institution but also often leads to the dismissal of teachers, particularly in places like New Orleans where many of the teachers are black. Do these concerns resonate with you?

It is important to clarify what we mean by "closing failing schools." In New York, we did not simply shut down school buildings. Instead, we gradually transitioned the management of old schools away while introducing the management of new schools, preserving important aspects like the physical building, programming, and athletics. The process is not as drastic as some may think, and this has also been the case for most of New Orleans.

The study effectively differentiates between transforming or taking over a school versus completely shutting down a school building. This is an important distinction. Obviously, one approach is more invasive than the other, and careful consideration must be given to potential side effects. As Joel Klein and I mentioned in our piece for The Daily Beast, these strategies were not convenient or comfortable, and they certainly had costs. It is important to acknowledge these costs. The question is, can we minimize the costs and weigh them against the benefits? Ultimately, we believe that when done properly, the benefits outweigh the costs and that the costs can be managed.

In New York City, we had an agreement with the United Federation of Teachers that allowed us to consider hiring the employees who were previously in the school building. This helped mitigate some of the costs. In New Orleans, we have a thorough process in place that involves community evaluation and decision-making when transitioning a school from one manager to another. This also helps mitigate potential costs.

There is no definitive answer as to what is right or wrong. There are effective and ineffective approaches, and there are always costs involved whether you make a decision or not. The question is, do the benefits outweigh the costs, and have we done everything necessary to minimize those costs?

I would like to inquire about the progress of the New Orleans Recovery School District’s return to local control. How would you assess the current situation?

Under our state law, we are essentially replacing one charter authorizer with another. The term "local control" can hold different meanings depending on the individual using it. In terms of policy, what is happening is that the state, which authorizes approximately two-thirds of the schools, is transferring the authority to authorize charters to the local parish school system. It is worth noting that the local parish school system in New Orleans is already an authorizer and oversees about a third of the schools.

This transition is already taking place, and the new law accelerates the process. However, this is not a return to government control of the schools. These schools will still be overseen by nonprofit entities and remain accountable to the state’s accountability system. They will not be managed by a local school board.

So, what sets this apart and makes it unique on a national scale? This means that out of the 14,000 school boards across the country, one has officially committed, through state law, to avoid restrictive and often segregating enrollment zones based on housing patterns. This means that the superintendent, a professional educator, will be responsible for authorizing decisions rather than a political body. This means that each school can act as its own local education agency and receive federal funds accordingly. Furthermore, the law ensures that 98 cents of every dollar goes directly to the schools.

This is a significant policy to implement, and it should be seen as a model when considering governance reforms and the desire for local decision-making and innovation within districts, as outlined in the Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA).

Is the transition going well? Yes, it is going well to the extent that I can confidently say that my concerns regarding education in New Orleans lie elsewhere and are not primarily related to governance and policy. We face greater challenges in educating our children and preparing them for life after high school. While the governance work is progressing positively, it is important for people to recognize the magnitude of this shift in innovation and policy.

You mentioned "segregationist housing patterns" in your previous response. However, the NAACP recently called for a moratorium on charter schools, citing concerns about potential increases in segregation. There is empirical evidence, particularly in places like North Carolina, that demonstrates how charter schools have contributed to greater racial and income segregation. Do you share these concerns?

Both district schools and charter schools are subject to regulation. In many states, private schools are also regulated. One crucial aspect of regulation pertains to admissions. The inclusivity or exclusivity of admissions procedures is not determined by whether a school is a charter, district, or private institution. It depends on how the regulatory body has chosen to regulate admissions.

In New Orleans, we have made the decision to offer all parents in the city the opportunity to seek admission to any school. Our city, like many others, is largely divided by race and class in terms of where people reside. If we were to establish enrollment boundaries based on neighborhoods, we would inadvertently perpetuate segregation. This applies to both district schools and charter schools. It is not about pitting district against charter schools; it is about ensuring that regulations regarding admissions and enrollment promote diversity rather than isolation and exclusion.

Let’s discuss the recent research on Louisiana’s school voucher program, which revealed significant drops in test scores for students who received vouchers. How do you interpret these findings, and what steps is the state taking to improve outcomes for voucher recipients going forward?

We have established a parallel system for evaluating the performance of different types of schools, including charter schools, district schools, and non-public schools. For non-public schools, if they fail to meet a certain minimum standard in one year, they are not allowed to accept new students in the following year. This is a rigorous approach that is new to schools of all types. It is only natural that under such strict regulations, both private and public schools require time to adjust.

The main question is whether these schools are viable options for families, especially those with low incomes. Unfortunately, there is still no conclusive research on that matter. However, this is a long-term question, and researchers need to take a long-term perspective.

Regarding the accountability system, let’s discuss the Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA). Where does Louisiana stand in terms of considering and implementing a new accountability system under ESSA?

When it seemed likely that this law would be passed, we began analyzing student data and reflecting on what has been effective and what has not in our state. We shared our findings through a series of meetings and discussions with civil rights leaders, educators, and community members throughout the state. Through this process, we realized that there are five critical challenges we must address in our state as part of this process.

Firstly, we realized that assigning an "A" grade to schools in our state does not accurately predict their readiness for the workforce and higher education.

Secondly, even if we raise expectations to meet that benchmark, there are still students who are not benefiting from this progress. We need an accountability system that is sensitive to the needs of these students who may be left behind.

Thirdly, we recognize that there are experiences that are not measured by standardized tests but are essential in preparing students for life after high school. It is crucial to acknowledge and support schools that provide these experiences, without neglecting literacy and numeracy. It is especially important to prioritize these experiences for students in low-income communities who often do not have access to them.

Fourthly, there is a significant number of schools that consistently perform at inadequate levels for several years. These schools are stuck in a cycle of underperformance, and we need to find alternative solutions to help them improve.

Lastly, all of these challenges must be addressed within the context of a teaching profession that is facing competition from other industries and experiencing increasing levels of strain. It is essential to strengthen the teaching profession to ensure a strong pipeline of talented educators, especially in today’s highly competitive global environment.

We have identified these five challenges and view the accountability system, as well as grant allocation and support provision, as tools to address them. The question is not what the accountability system should be, but rather how it can assist schools in overcoming these challenges with their students.

After conducting all of these meetings, we have released a draft framework for public feedback. I will be taking this framework on the road next week for a series of public meetings throughout the state. We will continue to refine and gather feedback until we feel that all the necessary facts have been considered. It is crucial that any proposal be explainable, rationalized, pressure-tested, and supported by evidence, regardless of whether there is a consensus.

What has your relationship been like with Governor Edwards since he assumed office?

Governor Edwards has consistently demonstrated a deep concern for education. He has been a member of the education committee for a long time, and I have had the opportunity to work with him when he was a state representative. Since becoming governor, he has expressed a desire to expand dropout-recovery programs in our state, and our agency has been supportive of this objective. He has also become the president of the Southern Regional Education Board, an organization that I greatly respect and have been involved with. This allows us to collaborate in that capacity as well.

While it is true that we do not agree on every issue, Governor Edwards’s genuine concern for education will undoubtedly have a positive impact on the system in the long run.

I am not aware of the details as we haven’t had a conversation about it. However, I know that the president has formed a commission through an executive order, composed of individuals whom he has appointed. This commission has already started meeting and will provide recommendations to the president. He also has the ability to consult and offer his input on the plan. When the time is right, I’m sure he will do so.

Is there anything else you would like to mention?

One important aspect that you haven’t covered is our focus on early childhood education and post-secondary education.

Regarding early childhood education, both parties seem to have misconceptions. The Democrats want to implement costly new programs, while the Republicans rightly argue that we should optimize our existing resources. However, there seems to be a lack of attention to this issue from both sides. We need to find a middle ground that is financially responsible and acknowledges the clear need for an improved child-care system and pre-kindergarten programs that are more accessible than the current ones.

In my opinion, we need to start by defining what constitutes quality education and ensuring reasonable access. In most cases, we will find that quality and access are inconsistent. The government’s role should not only be focused on increasing the number of available seats, although that is important. It should also involve developing measures for quality and improving access to quality programs for parents. Whether it’s Head Start, child care, private pre-K, or public pre-K, we must consider all these centers in our plan.

In Louisiana, we have implemented a system where every program that receives public funding, including private pre-K, public pre-K, child care, and Head Start, is evaluated based on a common accountability system called the CLASS model. These evaluations are transparently shared with parents. We have unified-enrollment processes that all counties and parishes in our state use for all types of programs. Additionally, there is equal funding across these program types to ensure that teachers meet minimum standards of preparation. This helps in addressing the disparities in teacher preparation levels between pre-kindergarten and child-care teachers, which is a common issue in many parts of the country. Achieving funding parity is essential in closing this gap, and we have made progress in that regard.

I understand that you were previously in New York City, so I’m curious if you have been following Mayor Bill de Blasio’s Pre-K for All program. Do you see it as a model or do you believe it has flaws?

I am not closely familiar with the day-to-day operations of the schools in New York City to make precise judgments. However, despite my disagreements with Mayor de Blasio on various education policies, I appreciate the attention he has brought to early childhood access nationwide. I also commend the New York City Department of Education for prioritizing curriculum and measurable quality in their plan. While the media often focuses on numbers, it is important to recognize their commitment to defining quality as they strive for greater implementation. I may have reservations about the de Blasio administration’s approach to education policy, but I commend their ambition in addressing this issue.